Mike Campbell (00:00:00):
Let's use the example of, and this is very common for our program. Like we will go at spikers, like we love making spikers, turning them into shooters. Right. So I'm just using those categories of offensive types. Right. So for a spiker traditionally, like you'll see a lot of combination athletes outside hitters that are playing left side. They like kicking out. Right. So we will serve deep right shoulder seam at a left side player. Right. So we'll try to pinch them in take away that, that kick out approach so we can read their body line a little bit better. Right. Cuz on the angle as a right-handed player, you've got a lot of options, right? You can go bodyline cross, you can turn it, you can tool it. You can hip pivot. There's just so much range. So if we can eliminate that angle, body line and turn it into more of like a stacked approach and make hitters hit thumb down where there's a little bit less control, there's a net that gets in the way there's a block that could get you. That helps us. Cuz then we can kind of read the pattern of shot a little bit better.
Mark Burik (00:01:00):
Mark Burik and here at bitter at beach, we do and give everything that you could possibly use to get better at beach volleyball, whether you're a coach or a player or you're just a fan. Uh, we have podcasts, we have online courses. We have camps, clinics classes, and uh, a pretty cool YouTube channel where we get to host some awesome guests like we have today. So today, uh, we have our guest Mike Campbell, who has been at the helm of long beach state university as storied university, especially, uh, in terms of volleyball. He's been there for eight years and he is also coaching at the professional level, the AVP level. So we're going to have some really cool and unique insights about the differences between club college pro and of course elite performance. So newly made father big congrats to him and uh, husband and super coach Mike Campbell. Welcome. What's going on, man.
Mike Campbell (00:02:04):
Mark. Thanks for having me, man. I, I gotta give a big shout out to your team and yourself. Get me on the podcast in the show. I'm I'm really excited to be here. I think there's just, you know, beach volleyball has done so much for me, so I'm, I'm super excited to share some of what I've gone through and some of my, you know, ideas around the sport. Uh, I'm looking forward to a great talk.
Mark Burik (00:02:22):
Oh yeah, yeah. Wow. I appreciate that. It is gonna be a great talk. We, we already talked off camera and congratulations. Uh, your son is now just over a month old. Is that right?
Mike Campbell (00:02:33):
Five weeks. And I, I, I hate to correct you already, but I I'm a father of two. So I've been through this already once with two and a half year old right now and, and yeah, five weeks. And, and let me tell you all those parents out there, man. I, I, I don't know how you guys do it, but uh, two kids is something, something else. So we're my wife and I are, are sorting our way through it.
Mark Burik (00:02:51):
You probably attend more volleyball tournaments than, than our average listener and they attend a lot and you've got, uh, two kids young. How do you have any one piece of advice for parents who are, who are running off and, and trying to balance their volleyball of life and passion with, uh, being great parents,
Mike Campbell (00:03:12):
Oh man, this, this you're opening a can of worms. I think the, the, the two things I would say is, you know, is make sure your partner knows what they're getting into when you marry. I'm married an absolutely supportive woman who, who understood what the life of a coach looks like. You know, like you said, traveling almost every weekend, either with a, with a AVP team or my beach team or a club team, or just something volleyball is going on every weekend, which is also cool because you know, it's beach volleyball and I can bring my family to it. And that's, that's been fun, but you don't get to, you don't get to celebrate certain things like Easter. I don't think I've celebrated Easter the last eight years just because we've always had volleyball. You know, we've always had long beach state beach volleyball in season.
And then the second thing is just routines, you know, routines as a, as a I'm sure, you know, as an athlete are huge and routines as a coach are really, really big and try your best to respect the routine. Because when you start changing things on the fly, you're harming somebody in your life. You know, whether it be a family, a friend, a partner, um, not harming in the physical way, but you know, you're taking your time away from them when they were counting on you. So, you know, those two things have been absolutely huge for me to balance it all and to be respectful of, you know, those in my life. And so that way I'm fully present when I'm with my wife on that Sunday, that one Sunday off between January and may my phone as much as I can stays put away. So I'm not answering a work email or I'm not dealing, you know, putting out a very small fire. One of my players is having, you know, I, I, I'm trying to, um, offload some of those things on those days. So it's been, it's been a challenge, like you said, eight years it's felt like a long time, but you know, those two things have really helped me.
Mark Burik (00:04:51):
The routine kind of hits me hard. I am a very, very seat of my pants, tight person. It makes the people who are, are working on my team struggle because I'll come up with an idea, I'll knock out 60% of it. And they won't even know what happened. and then will be sort of behind or in a mess. And then my wife, she loves planning. And I personally feel like, you know, I've never had to take anyone else's schedule into account. And so I'm consistently failing, but consistently attempting to improve, uh, communication of where I'm gonna be some weekend, how we're going to balance a, a travel schedule with three to four families. We both got like siblings everywhere and families, but we're still working out the calendar thing, you know, should we do a Google shared calendar? Should we do a, a written calendar? And where does it all get written? So how do you stick to a routine? And what do you mean by a routine when your life is literally could be anywhere, any weekend and depending on your teams, if, if they win or not that routine, or it changes your schedule changes.
Mike Campbell (00:06:02):
Yeah. Yeah. That's a great point. Especially with what we see on the AVP, right? When you're playing in a tournament that at any point you can get knocked out and, and, and the schedule, you know, in those circumstances, sometimes the schedule changes for the better. So, so, you know, however much my wife is rooting for us. Sometimes she enjoys a, an early oh two loss and sends me home on a Saturday. You know, I haven't had a lot of those unfor I guess, fortunately, or unfortunately for her. Um, but you're right. You know, it's hard to create the routines. I think for me, it's just, you know, we, we look at things a little bit ahead of time. You know, my wife is sounds very similar to you. She, she, she likes to be a little more spontaneous, whereas I'm a creature of habit and I like to kinda get into a routine.
It just helps me stay on track. That's something I learned in college when I was, you know, a player and I worked for the women's team and I had to pay, you know, work multiple other jobs to pay for tuition and housing and whatnot, just having a great idea, but, but operating at less than a hundred percent efficiency for me, I wouldn't put in my best work. And so in college I learned, you know, to, to be at my best, I needed to, Hey, these were the hours I'm working and these were the hours I was studying. And these were the hours I needed folks on volleyball because if I was at volleyball practice mm-hmm and I was worried about that tuition payment that I didn't have enough money for. And then I had to go do some tutoring that night, I couldn't watch film or whatever it was.
Right. I started freeing and, and then my, my, you know, my buckets were just too full and I was getting super stressed, dealing with lots of anxiety and things like that. So mental health, it, it took a, a, a dive. So I kind of used some of those experiences in college where I definitely failed and had many regrets. And now as a coach, a partner, you know, a husband and whatnot, I'm trying to, to implement some structure. And, and, and like I said, me being a creature of habit, having certain organizational skills that I've learned it is it can get boring. Let's just put it, let's put it simply, right. It can get boring doing the same thing every day. For me, knowing there's an, you know, there's a goal. I, I, I believe that I can get there. It makes it worth it. But like you said, we need to be spontaneous just as human beings.
I think that's healthy to get various, you know, hormones in your body, just, just to dial those things in for yourself of joy and to release that. I think it's important to have those, those outlets. So, you know, there's a balance. So I, I don't wanna sit here and say that we, my wife and I aren't spontaneous, and me as a coach, we don't do something every now and then in practice, that's completely off the, the routine. But I do think just having that, that, that big picture structure helps guide and then recalibrate, which is the biggest thing that I like to do is at the end of the year, reflect on what, you know, where were our strengths, where our weaknesses, what did we, like you said, what was a great idea that we had that we know we can accomplish, but we didn't get, you know, to a hundred percent efficiency and, and can we get there or was the idea too grand in the beginning? And we need to scale it back. I don't even know if I've answered your question at this point, but I think we were talking about routines.
Mark Burik (00:08:51):
We are. Yeah, no. And I've gotta,
Mike Campbell (00:08:54):
Sorry to, sorry. Let me finish this off from a performance standpoint. I think for me getting a routine, lets me get laser focused on something and give the best that I can for that, you know, area,
Mark Burik (00:09:05):
When you are creating a routine or a structure, you said, you know, we put some things into, into play and then we need to measure it. How far down the road do you look, do you plan, you know, when you're, when you're assessing your team, cuz you've got a bunch of teams at long beach and you're currently working with one team Troy field and chase Budinger on the AVP tour. So you probably assess. And then how far down the road do you stick to one plan and then choose to reassess or, or do you allow yourself to reassess in the middle of that? So do you set, do you set a certain time limit for, for those, uh, changes game changes, implementations.
Mike Campbell (00:09:45):
Yeah. Yeah. That's what a great thought. We, we, you know, the 10,000 foot view is always there, right? Me looking at a, at a college athlete who enters as a freshman and we want to graduate as a senior. You know, we, that, I think that view is a little bit more about us as human beings. Um, just making sure that we are what we call leading generative lives. So at our program we want, we want our players when they leave, you know, four years down the road, we want them to be generating more than they're consuming and that's like super, super broad. So that's kind of that view. And so I know that there are so many factors and little, you know, things that that will, will, will stop us or help us. And, and but, but I do know that from year one to year four, from freshman fall to graduation, that's the expectation.
And, and, and then the role that they take on, I, you know, that's hard for me to predict at, you know, at, at the beginning of their career, right? However, at the end of their career, I know that I can guarantee they will be courageous. They will be leading generative lives. They will be, you know, giving and being aware of that right now. Like you said, with the AVP team, Troy and chase, it's completely different, right. We at any given note or any point in time, we, we, we don't know that partnership might dissolve. Right? The, the, I don't have the control that I have, like I do at my college program. Right. We one bad tournament, something said, a guy can back out and go, Hey, I'm gonna try something different. Do
Mark Burik (00:11:09):
You think that's good about the AVP? Or do you think that's bad,
Mike Campbell (00:11:12):
Man? You know, it, it definitely adds a layer of uncertainty. I would imagine. I mean, you, I will ask you the same question in a second. I, I wonder as a, as a coach, I think it's tough because you know, this is my livelihood. I'm signing on to a team where we, I, I want continuity, you know, I want, like we're talking about, I would like to see something through from day one to, you know, day or I guess on the AVP from, from month one to month four or for me, right. For my scope is, is the summer. That's what I'm signing up for. And so as a player, I think it might be different. I think as players, maybe it's nice to be on edge knowing like, Hey, I gotta perform. I'm playing up with someone. Maybe I shouldn't, you know, I'm getting my crack at it.
Or maybe you're the opposite role. And you're like, Hey, I've, I've got the pedigree and I'm taking a risk on you. If you don't bring it, you're out, I'm finding someone else. You know? So I think there's such a vast scale on the AVP, cuz you're, you're a vet you you've seen, you've worked your way through from when you graduated your, you know, your collegiate team and moved through the beach at different points in your career. I'm sure you've felt this, but I think it probably depending on who you ask, it could hurt or it could help. And it just depends where you're at on that spectrum of experience and talent, right? Because maybe if you are a experienced player taking a risk on a younger guy, you want the freedom to say, Hey, if it's, if you're not putting in the work and I'm seeing you out partying every day and, and I'm in the gym and you're not showing up, you're bailing on practice.
Maybe you want the freedom to back out. Whereas maybe if you're an international team or at one of those top four us teams and you're trying to, you know, make it internationally and qualify for Paris or whatever your international goals are. Maybe there needs to be a layer of continuity and a layer of trust for team building reasons so that you go, Hey, maybe we didn't accomplish our goals, AVP 20, 22. But knowing our goal is to qualify for 2024, we need to have a really solid 23 qualifying year. Let's learn from our failures. Let's learn from those gaps in communication or whatever expectations and let's move forward. So I don't know. I think that there's a definite spectrum for that. What do you, what do you think? I mean, in terms of,
Mark Burik (00:13:22):
I think that the majority of the players in our country AVP, they don't stick together long enough to embrace system development and go through it in a way, when you look at an NBA team or, or an NFL team, you kind of give somebody like a year, sometimes, maybe two to learn the system, you know, to, to work with a new offensive coordinator or get involved there. And yeah, there's instances where somebody gets two weeks up at the show and then they're back down, you know, and you got that one chance to perform with the team, but also those teams are all working on their systems long term and trying to integrate 'em. So I, I think players break up too much and I know usually why they do, you know, you wanna win the dollar value is sometimes in your mind, even though it's like arguing over pennies, you know, but the, the difference of, of the qualifiers, I think a lot of the shuffles happen right at the, the bubble qualifier, like right where I am right now, where it's like, you know, if I put this guy I'm just automatically in, so I save a day of hotels, a day of travel, I have definite money.
Mm-hmm so it's not like a gamble anymore. It's at least now my travel and everything is covered. Yeah. Uh, and, and you're, then you start measuring, like, and I'm saving energy. But I think the older that I get now, I'm a, a lot less concerned with that and more who do I, I want to play with and who do I think I can actually be good with instead of how good are they? I used to look as the younger players, how good are they now I look at who I can be good with. Like what, what do I, what am I not so great at? And what do I pat at like me digs per game, great hitting percentage historically like lower middle, third digs per game, always high part of the tournament and hitting percentage is a huge part of it. So I need somebody who's gonna generate points in ACEs and blocks to pad my hitting percentage.
So if you're not a great server or big time blocker, I don't know if we're gonna be a good partnership. You know? So I, I look at it like that a little bit more. And, and I do think that players don't figure each other out enough. They don't have the one on one difficult conversations of even where you wanna be emotionally, you know? Uh, and I think coaches that third voice, having somebody like you out there saying, what emotion do you wanna represent? How does that make you feel? Where do you want that? The, the times when we've had third parties look at our game, that's when you realize that you've been doing completely opposite things and opposite directions for months. And you're like, for sure, oh, what you want that ball there?
Mike Campbell (00:16:07):
Yeah.
Mark Burik (00:16:07):
Why didn't you ever tell me that you just always thought I was missing by five feet every time
Mike Campbell (00:16:13):
Yeah. It's, it's a really cool concept. You bring up that, that compliment, you know, complimenting your strengths, right? Like, like you said, if you're very high on digs percent, low end hitting percentage, you need probably a really good setter, put you in good spots. You need someone who's creating points from the end line. I mean, I think you having the wealth of knowledge that you have to look at it and just the maturity to look at it that way is, is such a, you know, valuable thing that would, would help in partnership creation. Right? Where you, you, you brought up another good point. You don't have these playbooks. You don't have, like, you brought up the NBA NFL. That's something that I have the beauty of with long beach is we have like a 50 page playbook, like literally two, sorry, it's a handbook. And a technical manifest is what I've called them.
And the handbook is every single skill of beach volleyball that we teach written out with YouTube clips, with game clips, with links, to various videos of professional and collegiate athletes. You know, this was built by myself, my assistant by players. It's a, it's a live document every year. It changes, you know, we change terminologies. So we update the handbook. Then we have the technical manifest, which is a little bit for your, you know, your one, your ones and twos. You're like, we know this stuff, we've learned it through experience. Your three is four, five. Some of the, the, I call 'em the transplants, the indoor combo kids that end up transplanting and then just becoming beach only, cuz it's just such a fun sport and they're, they're getting more, you know, more looks there. They, they look at it like, hold on a second. This is a hundred miles per hour.
I'm going zero, maybe five miles per hour. I need a, a year to digest this. So we don't force that on them right away. But then they get a couple matches under their belt and they're like, okay, we need some technical stuff. We, we need some tactical stuff. We need a little bit more than just pass that side out or serve hard or block, et cetera. Right. So, um, we have both those things and that's stuff that professionally AVP players don't have, because like you said, uh, you, you just, there's so many breakups that how much of that information do you wanna share and how much of that information do you even put out there? Right. Like for, I think what I've noticed is, and you touched on it is that emotional side is such a big aspect of, uh, partnership in that, at that professional level.
Because like you said, the I'm not intentionally trying to do this or that I'm, I'm just trying to win. And if you don't get in tune with me or at least have a conversation with me about what's not working or where you think I'm weak, but I could easily fix it if you just tell me, but you're afraid to just tell me, yeah, you're afraid to tell me or have a hard conversation. Whereas me in that role. I mean, I, I think back when I was with working with Casey and chase last year, we were in Atlanta and in the winners semis, we lose to try and Trevor and it wasn't windy. It was very, you know, it was hot. Don't get me wrong, but it was, it was doable, right. There was no disadvantage on a side, but there was something going on with our setting and Casey being just a phenomenal setter.
Right. All he needed to hear from chase is, dude, you're a great center. You've got this. You can put me right where I needed. That's all he needed. And he articulated that. But those are things that I don't think a 20, 25 year vet, you know, that, I'm sorry, without being a 20, 25 year vet, I don't think some of the younger players are doing that. Right. And was just such a simple, easy conversation that led to them having that clarity. And then, boom, next thing you know, they're winning a tournament now, does that always lead to a winning result? I don't know, but it definitely fortified a team that was very edgy. And for me, I was like, okay, Hey, I'm gonna facilitate. But if they can't articulate, what are we here for? Right. This is just, we're gonna be back to square one. So it was cool to see Casey be able to have that emotional intelligence to be able to share that that was such a simple, straightforward need that chase easily could, you know, could do right. Is just, Hey dude, you're great. That's all it took for Casey. Now it's different for everyone. But like you said, if you're not committing some time or you're getting in that partner shuffle, you're not giving yourself enough, you know, layers of contact or layers of opportunity to develop and, or even have that conversation.
Mark Burik (00:20:15):
Do you see per certain personality mixes as more successful than, than other personality mixes? Now I know you told me that your wife's a therapist. So when I was, I share this a lot, but I was before I got married, I was like, let's go, it's time for training. I'm gonna go to like counseling. I'm gonna get the marriage therapy. I read a bunch of books on like marriage. And I learned a ton of stuff that I could bring to the court. Mm-hmm and a lot of it, I was like, wow, I've never asked my partner that I definitely haven't asked my wife that. So that's goal number one. But if I just said that or asked that on the, on the court, that would be great. Yeah. so are there any combinations of personalities that, you know, consistently or you've seen in your career consistently don't work or two like archetypes that definitely do
Mike Campbell (00:21:03):
Man. You know, I think, well using my own, I never played at a, at a high level like yourself and your peers, but using my own life. And my partner with my wife, my, my relationship with my wife, like we are complete opposite when it comes to sport. I think that is why we get along so well when it, when we have conversations about sport that helped me, she never played volleyball. She, you know, played sports as a, as a, as a, in high school. And I think collegially, she played on a, on a tennis team at, at Santa Barbara city college, et cetera. But, you know, she was so hungry and eager to learn about my area of expertise. And then likewise for me to her that we just, we meshed really well now, as I kind of transposed that onto beach volleyball, you know, I think of great partnerships in the past and you've got, I mean, there's such a variety of, of, of personalities. I don't think I can nail, you know, drive down on one archetype, but I do think there has to be a balance. You know, I don't think two fiery players, I think, you know, that are trying to both get spotlight and both get some of the accolades. I think that can butt heads at times, I think. Would
Mark Burik (00:22:13):
You consider Casey fiery to me? I think he's consistent. You know, like maybe when he came out, people would look at him and be like, dude's fiery. He's so emotional. Yeah. But when he stays at such a high, like when you're looking at 'em such a high emotional level of noise and thing, I don't consider him fiery to me fiery is more like a little bit up and down. I don't, I know that's, that's interrupting, but would you consider him like fiery? I feel like he's just so consistent. Um,
Mike Campbell (00:22:42):
Yeah. You know, I, I, I, I consider him one of the, the best VO, like the epitome of beach volleyball, trash talk and responding in a healthy way to it. So I don't know if that can be categorized into one word, but I think he is one of the best at involving the crowd feeding off the crowd, listening to the crowd, you know, cuz he's looking for those people that are talking crap and he, he gets, you know, he dialogues them, which I think is really cool. You know, it's such an inclusive environment as a fan, right.
Mark Burik (00:23:14):
Mike Jordan type deal.
Mike Campbell (00:23:15):
Yeah. You're talking to me what, wait, you're a pro athlete and you're listening to me. Like I think that's pretty cool. So I think he fed off all of that. And like you said, to me, it comes off as fire. Maybe I'm MIS MIS you know, mistakenly using that word. But I think like the energy that he has complimented chase really well, right. Where, where, you know, chase is a naturally, a little more reserved, doesn't really play with big emotions or small emotions just is very, you know, know he's focused on winning, he's focused on, you know, performance and um, you know, his competitiveness is there and that can be misinterpreted sometimes. You know, he doesn't talk sometimes he's not high five and whatever. Right. But I think Casey being able to like in those moments where chase got quite bring out a little bit of that energy from chase, there was, you know, again, I, I bring up Atlanta where we played, try and Trevor again in the finals and we were like, dude, you gotta go into this and we gotta have fiery chase.
And what do you know, first, second play of the game he blocks try or I'm sorry, Trevor. And gives him a stare down through the net. And I, from my seat, I was like, okay, we've got this. Like that is very rare to see. And so when we have that understanding from one partner and it matches and compliments the other partner for that moment, cuz you know, Casey was getting every serve, right? Casey was the focal point of these matches. He had to make plays on defense. He had to side out, he had to serve the ball. Well, like there was so much, he had to do that in that moment. We, we compromised toward Casey's side of what he needed and he was like, Hey, we we're gonna need to be a little bit more edgy and a little bit more, let's get the crowd involved and let's play to some of those strengths. So I think in that, but
Mark Burik (00:24:51):
If chase plays so well at, at a calm, collected level where he's very straight edge, you know, not too many smiles, not too many like reactions where he's pissed off, then wouldn't it negatively affect him. If he, if we, we like increased his emotional level to try to match chase or do yeah.
Mike Campbell (00:25:12):
To match Casey. Yeah. I, I, we, and that was a conversation we had. I was like, Hey, is this gonna be distracting to you? You know, I think that was the beauty of this team that I worked with is it was just, you know, they had already played together. Right. And then they split. So they came back together and then they having me, who I traveled to every tournament and then not only got to travel, but chase would stay with his wife, Jess and I would stay with Casey. So there was just constant conversation, you know what I mean about, Hey, what do we need? How do you wanna approach this? And it wasn't like, triangulation, let me go talk to chase. Let me go talk to Casey. Okay. Let's talk together. It was just, facilitation is really the best way to say it. You know, there wasn't even mediation.
I wasn't fixing anything. It was just, Hey, let's, let's facilitate, let's kind of put a little bit, uh, you know, a spark on the fire and then they would just keep adding, you know, gasoline, I guess would be a, I mean, I guess that's a terrible metaphor, but um, I think you understand what I'm trying to get at right. Is they would just keep providing the fuel for these conversations. And, and so yeah. You know, initially I thought, because of my experience with, with college, I was like, okay, yeah, that can be so distracting. Right. Is, is if I'm a, a, you know, a naturally steady player, but I got employed with a partner who's just high and low and high and I'm like, dude, just get with me. Like we are gonna win. If you can just stay here and we're asking that player to go super high, you know, it could be, it could be tough, right.
It's asking too much. But I think again, knowing I'm dealing with a professional athlete who, you know, again, special circumstance chase has played in the NBA and had, you know, layers and layers of competitive experience and maturity there. I think he handled that ask very well. Right. And it didn't, it didn't hurt his game in that moment. And then knowing chase, I think, you know, sometimes when he does get a little quiet is when he's internalizing some things. So I just tried to, I was like, this is, this is a win, it's a win-win right. You're gonna help your partner. You're also gonna stay super engaged on the strategy that I'm giving you or the tactics of blocking or whatever it was. Um, so it, so it ended up being a really good thing for this pair. Now hypothetical, if I'm dealing with someone who can't handle that, I think we have to maybe compromise a little differently.
Right? There's gotta be a little bit of give the other way. You know, I think that's a, you know, you just have that conversation and decide. And then with, with trial and error, it's a little easier as a college coach to, you know, have trial and error cuz you practice five days a week, you've got right. Like you said, I have 24 players. So that's 12 pairs that I can compete with and play with and tinker with. Whereas on the AVP, it's you and your partner and you practicing what three to four days a week and you're playing one other team, you know, you wanna make the most of that day. So sometimes you wanna do it your way and you don't wanna compromise. It's just not worth it. Cuz you're there to get better or whatever. Right. You're working on one skill or one aspect of your, excuse me, one aspect of your game.
But I think in this specific scenario, working with those two, two men, it was, it was, it was really beneficial to make that, ask to chase, to come out a little bit, show a little bit of that fire cuz then it just kind of shut the door on what try and Trevor did really well. You know what I mean? Which is a little bit of that chirping. And so it was nice to play with that level of intensity against guys who usually do that against every other team, you know? And it only wor you know, worked that time, right. They ended up beating us in other tournaments. And so it's, it's, it's not full proof, but I think it's a good starting point to get players, to play at a higher level or at least to try to find that, you know, so it's not an anomaly, right. When they're just bumping up and winning matches against top teams, we don't want that. We want that to be the standard baseline. Is that performance. Then the anomaly is beating 'em in two or, you know, beating them with a couple breakpoint advantages, right. Winning four or five points. I know that doesn't sound like a lot, but you know, when you're, when you're beating a team by four or five, you're doing something right, right. That's yeah.
Mark Burik (00:28:46):
You're 2017. Win is the demol
Mike Campbell (00:28:50):
Is embarra. Exactly. The 2010 win is a little scary cuz you know, they're coming back and have you, I think Theo Brunner has a, a theory about that. I I, have you ever heard that or no.
Mark Burik (00:28:58):
No, but I'm very interested.
Mike Campbell (00:29:00):
You gotta get talked to him. I heard it in passing from someone else, but he says, you know, if you lose by more than 12, you're pretty much guaranteed or I'm sorry, if you lose by more than 12, you're pretty much guaranteed to win the next set. He, he, again, he will be your expert on that. So I hint at that. So, and all these listeners are gonna go bug him about it, which I'm sure he'll laugh.
Mark Burik (00:29:17):
it's, it's that hot hand theory. Um, you know, when like a percentage that you'll make a foul shot is always the same, right? If you're a 67% foul shooter, you're always the same. But then over time, will it like slide back? My college coach said something very similar. He go, uh, to our setters. He goes, if somebody who is a, a 400 hitter gets blocked or stopped two or three times in a row, you have to set 'em again. because statistically like he's supposed to come back on that next one. And for the next couple after that. Yeah. So it would, I think that statistical flow would work, but then there's, there's that bias in there where it's like, well percentages or percentages and they're, they can be microcosms, but they work out over time as well. So
Mike Campbell (00:30:03):
I, I think that's, I think your coach is, is, is very similar to me. I'm the same way I would, I would, I would set my guy over and over and over again, if I needed to, to get that, we'll find that percentage. Right. Two, three errors. All right. Those are his three for the match. We're getting seven kills here somehow.
Mark Burik (00:30:17):
Right. That's it's a big thing that I'll, I'll tell my partners like, look, if we get wiped, it's like, you know, we're not this bad. Yeah. So it's like, we've gotten rid of all of the bad that we have for this match. So now, now we can just ride it. Yeah. And, uh, it's usually a good, good feeling. Have you, how much do you modulate people's energy like that, especially, maybe on, on your college team, because you have, like you said so many different athletes that you can, so do you take somebody who's getting too fired up and bring them back down because you know, that it'll be harmful to their game? I think a lot of people default to fired up. Like they wanna be excited and, and go into the game with high energy. But I, I know for myself that I actually don't play my best when I'm fired up. I play my best when I'm, I've got a high tension, but I'm not just going nuts, you know? So how much do you, do you modulate your players and is it there energy and emotions and is it different between NCAA and AVP?
Mike Campbell (00:31:22):
Yeah. So I'm gonna try to stay on topic cuz that's a, that's a great question. And I, like you said, there's a lot, lot of directions. I could, I learned this really cool system from Jeff Ana. He was our volunteer, you know, a handful of years ago, right before he started helping out UCLA. Now he is at Santa Clara as the head coach, but he had, you know, a wealth of experience, um, working with professional athletes. And so I asked him, I said, Hey, what you know, our team at the time was like you said, is, was rollercoaster. We were talent. Second to none. We were a great talented team. But our performance was, you know, one day we're beating the, you know, a pair against UCLA or USC. But then the next game we're dropping to an unranked team that we're like 9 99 times outta a hundred.
We probably beat that team. But that was the one time at a hundred we lose. And so he gave me this system of red and blue, right. Just using colors, right. Red are the, some of the, the high fiery emotions. Blue is some of the calm, cool collected flow state emotions. So he gave us these lists. And so these players started, you know, thinking back, oh yeah, you're right. I got really red for that match. And so that was easy for us cuz as college coaches, you can't really, it's a little different on the AVP as a coaches, but as college coach, you can't really give much other than just cheering. Right. So mid rally during, or I guess between rallies, it's just, Hey, great job. So we started kind of little gray area. We would say, Hey, let's stay blue. You know what I mean?
So wrap had no idea what, what we were saying, but that would remind players that we need to stay a little bit more calm in this moment. And then conversely, you know, we, some moments, I was like, we gotta get red. Like we gotta get a little fiery, get a little angry, but then let's settle back into blue at some point. So everybody was kind of, you know, mean their, their, their mean their average would, would eventually end up in the blue, but there were moments where, you know, I tell my players, Hey, if you need to throw sand or kick a ball, then, then emote. Like I want you to be authentic and do that, but I need you to have the emotional intelligence and the IQ and maturity that's to circle back and get back into a state of mind where you know, you're gonna perform at your best. And I think that,
Mark Burik (00:33:17):
So you're okay with the, the pressure valve release when somebody's like, ah, and then they can come back.
Mike Campbell (00:33:23):
I mean, I, I, I personify my anger. I, I call it Miguel. I go, I don't know why I go that way, but I I've just Michael and Miguel, I don't know. It's just for me. I, I give it, you know, so anytime, you know, I'm in practice or when I was younger and playing and not doing something great, I would just grab my shirt. I think I learned this from Kobe. I'd grab it, bite my shirt and scream into my shirt. Miguel. Nobody knew what I was doing. I didn't wanna use foul language. I knew, you know, as a collegiate athlete, I knew there was an image we wanted to maintain. Um, but it was my release and it, and EV I mean, I can't give you specific examples, but I know mentally after that, it, it helped me quite a bit. I just remember vividly the, the emotional side of things. I might have shanked the next ball, but that was just because they hit a good serve or whatever. Like it wasn't because I was pissed
Mark Burik (00:34:09):
And everybody from the outside is looking like, oh, he lost it when really you had come back
Mike Campbell (00:34:13):
Afterwards. No, exactly. For me, I felt good. I didn't, again, it didn't mean it. Wasn't a sure thing. Sure. Fire method for me to win a match or to score the next point. But it, I knew that whatever I did, I would be operating at a little bit of a, of a, a cleaner mindset. And I'd be more aware, right? Present is the big, you know, the, the hip term right now, I would be a little more present in that, in that regard, when I played 10 years ago, we didn't, you know, we didn't talk about, I, I came in at UCLA playing for skates. We didn't talk about anything that had to do with mental health. It was just show up. You play, you compete, you watch him film. He was big on film. You watch him film, you show up the next day.
You do it again right there. Wasn't Hey, how are you feeling today? You know, is feeling some anxiety, some stress, no, no, no. You, you checked all that at the door and you just, I'm sure it was the same for you, right. You just, uh, that I think that's been destigmatized over time. I think there's a lot more focus on flow state and getting yourself into that zone. Right. Um, of high performance where, you know, I can't, I can probably count on my hand five times or less that I ever actually felt that. And I think some players get it a lot and some players never get it, you know? And, and so I try to teach the, you know, so you, your original question, how do I modulate that with the athletes? I think with the collegiate athletes, it's an awareness building exercise of just, okay, start the conversation with them. Hey, look, here's a match. You were really, really great, but how much of it was skill and how much of it was anger or frustration, you know what I mean? And is that the way you want it to look for the rest of your season or for your,
Mark Burik (00:35:45):
So you do have that conversation of what emotions were you feeling. Do you wanna repeat that? Did it, did it match your performance and was that the reason that you performed like that?
Mike Campbell (00:35:55):
Correct? I think that's something that we always will debrief is, you know, Christian, my, my assistant and myself and our volunteer, whoever it is at the time we, we, you know, I try to, to use those as opportunities, cuz again, if for us and the way we build our program, we're not winning a lot of those matches when we go really red and fiery and angry, like we're just not winning those matches. Those are usually the matches where we get ourselves into third game and then we need a little bit of wherewithal to focus and re reframe and kind of resort ourselves, repackage some things. And then we end up losing those games, 16, 14, or 17, 15 with an accumulation of errors at the end, right? Like we would be up 14, 11 and drop the game 17, 15 down the stretch, right. Or he'd be up 13, 12 we need, or sorry, 13, 11, we need a couple side outs and they break, they, you know, they get a few break points on us, late in the game.
Right. So we were, we were identifying those as opportunities to, Hey, let's debrief on this. Instead of talking about, you should have hit this on game point. You should, let's talk about the emotional side of it and say, Hey, was that the way you wanna replicate games moving forward? Did you feel under control is, you know, the highs are tho are, are those places that we can replicate when you are feeling some of those emotions? So a lot of it, like I said, I keep using that word, emotional intelligence. We're trying to build, um, you know, a, a rapport and a language around that where we can talk about that as something that's normal, normal, you know what I mean? It's, it's just, it's, that's just what we talk about as opposed to what it is right now, where I think there's this stigma around, Hey coach, I'm a little angry.
I don't know how to, you know, should I, should I hide that? Or I'm a little sad. Should I just check that at the door and never deal with that? I think we're trying to de-stigmatize that a little bit, cuz again, our program, we have to be high thinkers. We have to be problem solvers. We have to be in tune with some of those things. Um, you know, and I use the example, like I think one of our program is one of the best when it comes to win strategy and playing in the win, we practice from one to 4:00 PM every day we get this
Mark Burik (00:37:51):
Win central in Southern California,
Mike Campbell (00:37:53):
You know you, and we did that for a number of years. So my seniors this year, you know, we played a tournament down at Rosie's dog beach in long beach here and he got really, really windy and we're playing some top teams and we just, it just felt comfortable, you know? Yeah. And so I knew then that we were not red. We were very blue. We very calm. We were, we were thinking through strategies and service locations. And just as a coach, when you don't have the ability to tell them every point what to do, seeing your team doing what you are thinking they should do, or at least doing a, a training method that we've implemented in practice. It, it, it gives you, you know, the confidence to know that they are present. And then we only have three coaches, five courts playing at a time. I can now leave, leave that court and go to another court with confidence, knowing, okay, we might lose, we might win, but at least we're gonna do it with control. And the next time we play, it can be a tactical thing. Hey, let's try these tactics next time. Whereas if it's an emotional thing as a coach, I'm like, you know, you guys gotta be able to articulate your emotions so we can kind of better approach it next time. Well,
Mark Burik (00:38:55):
Is there, I mean, cuz there's two things that I always think of when emotions, like how much are you going to let it affect you? Because if we, if we talk about like kind of therapy and meditation, it's recognizing the emotion that I'm feeling and just recognizing it, you know, trying not to attach yourself to it or, or, or ride the wave necessarily. So once somebody recognizes that they're mad, are they supposed to ride that and behave a different way? Or are they supposed to recognize it, then be like I'm mad and ditch it and then come back to a certain center, which, which should they be doing? What, what do you, what do you preach as a, as a
Mike Campbell (00:39:35):
Well, so that's where we, we have those conversations for, you know, I think you have to cater for us. We have to kind of meet players halfway, if not a little bit more toward what they're most comfortable with at that time. Now I feel as a coach, it's always my job to kind of pull them to the edge of their comfort zone and keep them right on their edge. So balancing that is tough. Right? I have a player at the ones this year who, who is just, just, I mean, I guess a pair, I should say my, my blocker was she's from Italy. She's got tons of experience, international playing F I B whatever, but she just said, I just need to side out. I just need to serve. Like she would package things. So simply in her mind, like we are losing cuz I did not sight out.
Whereas the other players like, no, no, no we're losing cuz we're not hustling. We're not going for balls. We're not hitting it hard enough. Like we need to have this effort mentality. We need to just go for it. You know what I mean? And I'm like keeping them together was, you know, a good learning experience for me. They didn't finish the year with terrible loss. They were a very middle of the top 20, you know, middle of the PAC team in, in, in a sense, you know, they're a top team don't get me wrong, but they had just as many wins as just many losses against the top 20 teams. Right. So I don't think either of their ways doing it, you know, separately was the right call. And so for me, when I'm dealing with each of those athletes, I think getting the, the higher energy output to, to kind of oscillate a little bit more to find and blend with the lower and try to find that middle ground is when they played their best.
Right? So, so not asking my high energy player, Hey, you've gotta just drop everything. I still wanted her cuz that's when she felt best. Right. That's when she was making the best running around and seeing the game, you know, I wanted her to be on her edge, but also comfortable enough to, to think clearly and tactically build patterns and recognize patterns and whatnot on defense. Okay. Whereas my blocker said, Hey, we've just gotta surf tough, keep it simple. And I'm gonna pull. And I was like, eh, you're playing at the ones here. That's not, not gonna work. You know, this plant, Tina grad, USC, the girl can, you can beat a polar. Right. So, um, you know, and that, and that's just one example, that's a big name everybody's gonna know, but every single program has the ability to score. So if you're not, you know, balancing some of that.
So what I learned from that pair is I think some of the simplicity is helpful. Some of the fire is helpful. And then depending on you know, which player I'm speaking to or which pair we're working with and then where we're at in the match, you've gotta kind of facilitate that conversation with those, with those players and get them to understand this is the solution to the current problem and it could change next match. Right. Cuz those, those external factors are different. Every single game. Right? Um, for the, for my ones pair, it was a little bit about tactics. Hey, are you guys even thinking about tactics or are you so upset that you're not citing out and keeping it simple? And are you so upset that your partner's not fiery that you're not even thinking about the tactics of how to score the points. Right. Cause then next thing you know, we've given up three break points. We're down
Mark Burik (00:42:36):
On your partners.
Mike Campbell (00:42:37):
Five, two on a side. Yeah. Five, two on a side switch and the game is gone. We're O you know, it's over. Right. So I think it varies level to level. I think that's the biggest, I'm not trying to give a cryptic answer here, but I think it does vary within my program level to level pair levels. Right. One through the five,
Mark Burik (00:42:54):
I think. Well, if somebody, if somebody walks into to practice and they're like, coach I'm pissed today. Yeah. Do you, do you allow them to be pissy that day? Because they're, you know, that's like where their comfortable and what their emotional state was or do you tell them, Hey, I get that, let's find a way to drop it so that you can get back to, to what our practice environment is because there's, there's a lot, we, I mean, in the last yeah, five years, we've brought emotions and, and how everybody feels into the forefront of conversation. Yeah. Where the gyms that we grew up in were, Hey, leave it at the door. Mm-hmm those problems will still be there when you get out, you can pick them up back, you know, when you leave the gym, but here, this is how we behave. So when somebody walks into your gym and they're pissed, visibly audibly, do you allow them to, to ride the pissiness or do you say you need to fix yourself right now and get on this emotional scale?
Mike Campbell (00:43:58):
Yeah. You know, it's, it's, that's what a great idea. I think it's hard, you know, to it, it, it, for me, it takes a lot of time to build that trust with my team. You know what I mean? To, to where they'll actually be authentic enough to share that with me. I think on my assistant coach will hear that before I do, and then he'll share it with me. But you know, I, I, I, I would hope that they would share it once they do. I think the, the conversation is let's unpack it a little bit, you know, what is, what is causing it? Is it someone here? Is it your past result? You know, what, what usually volleyball beach volleyball for our team is a safe Haven, right? That is where they want to go to take out some of their frustration. That is where they want. That is their, you know, place of
Mark Burik (00:44:39):
A big usual, but then like your entire friend and peer environment is also, and your competition is also sitting there in the same gym. So sometimes, you know, another person on the team is also like what you perceive as causing you stress, but eh, go on. Yeah. So it should be the release, you know, for the rest of life. But sometimes it's like, you're going to the gym where the, your worst enemy that's holding you down is correct.
Mike Campbell (00:45:05):
So that's yeah, that was what I was gonna get to. Was you, you know, usually safe place, right? So the stress of school gone, okay. When it is a player or a teammate that's causing the pain or the frustration, that's where we do, you know, have a conversation, Hey, you're gonna make it work today. And when we're done with this, we will set up a time to have a conversation. Right. Cuz I don't want those conversations to happen in the middle of practice. I don't think that should be the focus. I think if you are coming to practice and you haven't dealt with the conflict, you're not, it's it, that's not how we conflict resolve. We don't do it in that moment. Right? Like we're gonna problem solve. We're gonna try to make it work to the, you know, benefit of the team. And if that can't happen and you're part of the problem, you're both removed and you can, and, and we'll, you know what I mean?
So we've kicked players outta practice before I've kicked pairs. We do like a field goal touch. So they basically go and run field goals until they're calm. Like we, we have all these different methods to allow them, like I said, I allow the ball kick as long as you SHA it, I allow the sand throw as long as you don't throw at it too. You know? So we have some mechanisms to deal with the, the small, but when it is a big trauma, big trouble, that's when we have to have a conversation, it can't be, we, we try to not have those conversations in that practice. We try to get away from the practice environment. I don't even like doing 'em in my office, cuz I think there's a, you know, some feelings around coming into your head coach's office where it can be a little bit of a scary place. So we try to do those out on campus or, you know, get a meal or do it offsite and then, you know, whatever whoever's causing that frustration, usually everybody's there and we just hash it out. Sometimes
Mark Burik (00:46:40):
I think that sounds kinda like a, what I think a good marriage should be, you know, when, when you know that something's on the table or, or under the surface, it's like, but now it's not the time that we're gonna deal with this. Like let's pick a time where we can actually do it. Like maybe we're not gonna argue about this little thing in front of all our friends at dinner. Like let's let we'll table this till we get home or, you know, any priorities that you have in your relationship, like, okay, but is this our priority to talk about and fix right now? Let's if it's not, then we need to decide on a time and agree on a time when we can fix it. But we have to be here for each other now and set that. I, I don't know if you can sit emotions aside or tuck them in for a little while. ,
Mike Campbell (00:47:21):
You know, I think, yeah, it's, it's tough. Right? Like I think of my wife and I, and when we fight now and I have a two and a half year old, who's starting to basically like parrot, say everything we say, right. So I'm like, okay, Hey, you know, she's probably better at this. She's like, let's not let's she's listening or, you know, let let's let's pack unpack this later. And then just naturally I hear that from her a lot. I'm we do the same with our team and I think it's important because you know, if you're the ones pair and you're walking around with this entitlement and ego and thinking, you can get away with certain things. And if I'm the fives player looking at that, or if I'm a freshman red shirt, I'm thinking that's the accepted behavior, you know, that that is what I'm gonna start naturally doing just by process of diffusion.
Right. I think as a coach, I have to be very careful there. Right? We cannot. And that's where some of those conversations have to happen outside of practice because it's like, look, I get it, mark. You're doing some great things for our program. And there's a lot of pressure on you. And it's hard. You know, our program is not like a USC where you've got just 10 players who are gonna go on and play pro. And you saw, I mean, with, with the term AVP this week and there's like five or six USC players in the, in the semis are better. Right. You know, P power to them for being able to do that. But we're the type of program where, you know, our ones are gonna compete with one or two other pairs in practice, maybe three. And then the rest of our team are all competing against each other for like a mid 3, 4, 5 level.
Hmm. That kind of makes sense. Right? Cause we still have a lot of our, our athletes that are play high level, our blockers are coming from the indoor team. Right. We've got a lot of combo athletes coming that, that aren't there in the fall. And so when our, you know, top players start getting treated a little bit differently or there's some, we let, 'em get away with some of these big emotions that other players are exhibiting, but we're like, no, no, no, you you're. This is your first year here. What do you think you're doing? You know, we have to be very careful around that. Right. So that's why I like having those conversations outside of practice. Hey, while you're here, we do what's best for the team and you're here to make your teammates better. You know, we're, we're, we're leading that generative life.
We're trying to help create that atmosphere where we're gonna give more than we consume and then offsite or outside of practice. Let's now talk about your needs and how I can better coach you to satisfy that, to get you to be the best version of yourself, right. Or how can your partner help that? And that's when we sometimes check players and go, okay, what you're asking is so unrealistic, it's never gonna happen. Or, you know what, I'm sorry. I never thought of that. I'm sorry. I'm, I've been close minded and I didn't think of that for you. And that's where I think a lot of growth happens for our program is we were so willing and, and my assistant Christian he's. So we're so inviting to those conversations that we get a lot of growth outta players for that reason. And so I think we avoid a lot of those big outbursts in practice because the door is always open to have that conversation outside of practice.
So, you know, we're not, I'm not here to say that we never have those. I think we have probably our fair share of 'em just as many as any other top program, but I think we're, we're, we're nipping it in the bud pretty quickly, right. With, with the first try just because we have some good mechanisms and we're, we're, we're inviting of that, right? Like we invite players to be authentic and to understand their point of view. And why would that, that cause them to act that way? Like getting, like understanding someone when they fail? I think so often people are like, Hey, you just, you know, we're, we're gonna, you just didn't bring it today and we're gonna sweep it under the rug. And next day you gotta be more competitive or like you said, more fiery or, you know, whatever. I think breaking down what actually is, is, is preventing us from being a better version is important. Right. I think that's where a lot of our conversations will get to and it's not easy, right? Like you're dealing with an 18, 17, 18 year old and asking them to, you know, be a big adult here and, and, and articulate feelings that they, no one has ever held them accountable for. And so I
Mark Burik (00:51:08):
Think of any feelings is not easy, like understanding what you felt, why you felt it, where it came from and then like being able to apply or control it. Correct. That's it's not easy
Mike Campbell (00:51:18):
. Yeah. So, so I think just normalizing that and inviting them to share is the first step. And so that's why I think, you know, when we look at how do we approach the various levels of player in that hierarchy, cuz no matter how much we try to break that down, there's just a natural hierarchy of power ranking of, you know, Hey, this player's the ones and we're not really, you know, she's kind of solidified her spot. She's now a senior, right? Whereas these are freshmen, there's no hazing that goes on. That's long gone, but it's just a matter of right. You know, that, that maturity and there's just naturally with a 22 or 23 year old, there's a little bit more confidence. And so I think those, those younger players feel that imposter syndrome and hide from it. Whereas we try to bring them to the forefront and, and let them know, Hey, we're only gonna be good if you guys can jump on board with this and until you do, we're gonna kind of be plug in more holes than we, you know, than fingers, right?
Like we're gonna have 11 holes for 10, 10 fingers. So I think it's important that, you know, we, we, for us, at least that's how our program is doing it and it's, and it's been, you know, a healthy way for players to then understand, Hey, what is appropriate in practice? And when can you have your outburst, cuz we still want you to be able to, you know, emote, like that's a huge part of the sport and that's the, you know, the culture of the sport, right. When you watch it on the professional level, these players are emoting. They're not just staying blue the whole time. Right. But, but
Mark Burik (00:52:42):
Um, now are you having those conversations with, with your AVP teams when you get to the pro, like when, you know you're coaching, uh, jar and bill, I think, uh, and uh, chase and uh, Troy super high emotional kind of yeah. High mix, but like likes to play positively much like Casey, are you having, as many of these talks about how they're regulating or what, what they like to play at with the AVP? Are you talking about it very differently than you do with your college women?
Mike Campbell (00:53:13):
You know, the framework is the same. I've I've had some, so I've coached for four years. I was with Jeremy and came that first year came, sorry. And that was, that was like the epitome of complimentary personalities. Right? Like they, they just gelled and they knew their goal was to win and they both got their first win in Seattle. That was really cool to be a part of. And I think that really worked. Like I look back on that Seattle tournament and we didn't scout, we didn't watch film. We just literally went out. There was like this street fair. We went out and listened to these high school kids playing rock music. And we like partied with these not partied. You know what I mean? We hung out with these parents of these rock band kids and we were just, they just were there, they were in tune, they were authentic.
They knew what they wanted. And Jeremy goes on an absolute tear on Sunday and came, played some great defense inside, out behind them. Right? Like they just felt so comfortable that it was very easy for them to be the best versions of themselves as, as players. So for me, there wasn't much conversation that needed to be happening around, Hey, some of the emotional cuz there just wasn't very many emotional conflicts. Jeremy was intense focus, but high energy came was a little bit more calm. You know, he is your friendly Canadian. Right. He didn't wanna piss anybody off his first year as an American us citizen. Right. So
Mark Burik (00:54:23):
Don't wanna get kicked out.
Mike Campbell (00:54:24):
Yeah, exactly. So there was just a, a natural balance. Right. And then you take it to the next year with the, the quarantine year, which was super weird because you practice for five months with I, I was with KA and, and chase. So it was smoke and mirrors. Right. They were having great practices, nothing on the line didn't ever need to have any conversations. And then you get bam, bam, bam, three straight weeks of tournaments with very well, you know, they made it to Sunday, each tournament. So we took Monday off, we went light Tuesday. Like there was never time and because we didn't travel, there was never any opportunity to really connect with one another. I was very shy because I was like, man, chase is kind of intimidating came. I kind of know a little bit, but I was still huge imposter syndrome.
Like second year coach never have played these guys. Like I remember when I played high school against chase, he was, I was an oppo. He was an outside. That dude was probably three feet above my block, bouncing balls, hitting my setter in the head. I was like, man, I don't what I'm doing. So there was just this like natural intimidation. Right. And so that was just a very tough year to have conversations. And then so I was like, okay, Hey, I need to put my big boy pants on and I'm not gonna let it happen this year with chase and Casey, like Casey's intimidating, he's an Olympian. He's, you know, done so much winning second year with chase. I kind of earned his respect. After that first year I stuck with him. He, you know, we had a good trust thing going on. You know, we worked a lot one on one because Casey was living out in the valley. So we didn't get to practice as much with him. Whereas chase and I are both in the south bay. So I did so many individuals with chase and we just connected just because we had been around each other so much. So
Mark Burik (00:55:58):
What are those conversations like when, when you're working with chase one on one, is it him saying, Hey Mike, I need this or you saying, what do you wanna work on? Or are you saying, Hey chase, I think we have to add this to your game. And if you come to a disagreement there, what happens? That that's, it's tough when there's only two or three, there's no hierarchy. It's always like,
Mike Campbell (00:56:21):
Yeah. Yeah.
Mark Burik (00:56:22):
So that, so what does an individual, I guess, you know, with chase look like when you decide what you wanna do, do you go back to your bird's eye view and say, okay, this is where we're trying to get this month. So in order to do that, this is how this practice has to look or how does he have a lot of input as well?
Mike Campbell (00:56:38):
Yeah. Well, it was definitely a lot of input, both ways. I think we, we, we, we sat down and watched a lot of film. I think that was what made it easy. Every Monday morning I went to his house, we were watching film. We, you know, identified that was something we started doing with KA and Tyler Hildebrand when they were kind of in with USA. And then when that fray and that split, it was something we just kept doing. And so we said, Hey, this is off season training. What do you wanna get better at serving and pulling? So we did like two straight hours of just very generic, like, like he understood that building skills takes time. And I think that was just made it so easy for me because that's how I think I'm like, you've gotta have an understanding of great mental image of what you're trying to work on.
What is it, what do you look like doing it? Which is why him watching film was such a nice thing because you know, he was watching it from like a biomechanic sense and not a judgemental sense. Like, Hey, what do I look like? Oh man, I look so stupid or damn that looked really cool. Let's post that on Instagram. You know, like it was more just how can I get better? Cuz I need this skill to win. Even though he knew like pulling, he would only use that once again. But we went out and did thousands in catalog, thousands of pulling reps or now it's just people think he's just athletic. And I'm like, dude, we work so hard on getting him to pull and react quickly to a hard driven ball. Like I was hitting. I mean, I don't hit nearly as hard as you guys, but I was hitting some hard balls off of a 40 inch box, crushing him from, you know, trying to shorten the time he had to react. And it, we just built that skill. Right.
Mark Burik (00:58:03):
So it was just rep on rep it wasn't. I mean, I think I see a lot of coaches trying to come up with libraries of drills and for chase who's somebody who understands it, maybe kind of like that Kobe mindset of shooting threes for three hours. Yeah. Like, no, I'm just shooting threes for three hours. Yeah. I move a little bit. Right. I move a little bit left. I take a step back, but I just have to train my body to make this three. Is that the kind of practices that you guys were running where it's just, yeah, we're out here repping the same thing for an hour and a half until your body masters it
Mike Campbell (00:58:37):
And don't get me wrong. I tried to get creative and I just you're right. It just, we had to just do three months of the same thing a couple times a week. I mean it wasn't two hours, you know, it was about 30 to 40 minutes of it and then we would do something different. So we would still, you know, touch on other skills to keep it fresh. Cuz again, I'm routine. I was like, this is easy. I'll just hit, hit, hit, but I don't want players to get bored and I get it. Right. So, so we would try to, to give it a little flare every now and then, but, but, but in its essence it was just repetitions. It was cataloging, very diligent, deliberate, you know, diligently, planned and deliberately executed repetitions so that we knew that when we were in a game and I was like, Hey dude, right, righthander on the right.
Set's coming over shoulder, pull, pull sea. And just Digable he said he, he would know that language. He's like, got it. Right. I didn't need his partner to know what we were talking about. I just needed him to be ready to make that play at 19 all if our serve connected or you know what I mean? Just being able to have the confidence that you've built that skill. Then when, as a coach, I can ask you to do it with confidence. I'm not drawing up some play going, oh man, hope this works. Like I was like, if this happens, if a happens, I know B will happen now. I don't know C us getting a kill will happen, but I know we'll get a great opportunity, which as, you know, as a hitter, that's all you can ask for is a swing for the game.
If you have a swing for the game and you have a decent hitting percentage more times than not, it's gonna go your way. Right? Yeah. So, so we were trying to get to that level. And so working with him was really, I don't wanna say easy, but it was, it was easier because he was so invested in the film review and the film study and coming to, to that. And that's why I said it was both of us, right? Like I built the drill and he picked the skill. And so a lot of those skills oftentimes on my list would match up. And so there was just natural synergy there. So we were really jazzed up when our skills matched up. So emotionally how many, you know, the conversations we didn't really get into, cuz it was just, let's keep it straightforward. He wants to get better at this.
This is how you do it that second and third year when I worked with him, he, you know, he understood, okay, this is a guy who kind of knows what he is talking about. I got him like, we're gonna get it done. And so, you know that third year with Casey, that's what we were able to build. Right. And Casey was super inclusive and super inviting of my ideas, knowing that he's like, I need a third set of eyes. Like I, I know that there's things that I do that I, I get very tunnel vision on and I need you to reset me or I need you to tell me
Mark Burik (01:00:52):
What ideas does Casey have after such a long career that he invites you to, to mitigate or, or what, you know, as a, as a coach, who's way younger with actually like less experience, but he's hired you as a coach. What do you think that you bring that he doesn't see? Or do you say, Hey, do you see this? Or is it just your voice that needs to be there? You know what, when you say that, that he invited you in some different ideas. Yeah. What ideas did you have that he hadn't yet experimented with or
Mike Campbell (01:01:24):
Tried? Yeah. Most of it, it wasn't tech, uh, technical that's for sure. Right? I'm not gonna go out there and say, okay, this is how you handset. I was like,
Mark Burik (01:01:30):
Take just funny hands
Mike Campbell (01:01:31):
. Yeah, exactly. I wasn't trying to fix the passing or anything. I, I was the arm swing hitting from his left shoulder. I, all I tried to do was enhance some of his strengths. Right. So knowing that he hit left shoulder, I was like, Hey, you have to clean stage every time if I was playing you, I would serve you to this zone because it takes away a certain element of your staging, which makes you more predictable, which over time, if I'm playing you for 21 points, I know late, if I'm in a game, I can get you over time. Cuz I've got the pattern and that's just so I would say, Hey, if I was scouting, this is what it would look like. And so that idea of like really nailing things. So he would keep all of his options. So like, you know, as a writing on the right, if he kicked out there was, he would lose some of his power down the line.
Whereas, you know, so his teams would start running twos against him and he would miss some of the, so there was, there were certain tactical things that I was just, just tracking in a little notebook, like, Hey, you've hit six straight, deep angles or sharp angles or cut shots. They might be picking up on this. Let's try staging this way, open up your vision. And you know, cuz he's the type of player that doesn't need a huge vert. Right. So I was trying to make sure that at all times he had full vision and then he had his bodyline power. So that if nobody ever got there, he could just quickly, you know, hit a ball. Right. So,
Mark Burik (01:02:42):
So your job was to more recognize his patterns. That tendencies probably can't pick up on like, you know, the difference between a, a 2 75 hitter and a 300 hitter. Um, one's in the hall of fame. One probably gets kicked outta the MLB pretty easily is one hit every two weeks. Yep. You know, so it's like something we can't track on our own, but your job was to pick up on those tendencies and then try to suggest solutions that,
Mike Campbell (01:03:07):
And most of it, most of it, cuz Casey's just such a experienced defender that I wasn't gonna change where he started or what he saw. But I was calling plays from like, Hey, this could be a pattern, right. This player's hit when he's in trouble Highline. Right. So let's set that up. However you wanna set it up, hide behind chase flash out early, do a joke. I don't care, but we're gonna get beat on a cut shot. We are not gonna get beat on a Highline at 2019 when it's our game point. Like we are gonna be on that. So that was some of the ideas was okay, let me track that tendency or the pattern. Let me catalog it and give it to you guys. And if you want to use it, use it. I'm not, I have no ego in this. I mean it is.
I'm making such a small percentage of, of, of, I have such a small impact. If I can steal you guys one or two points late, I think that was really a big contribution for him. Right. Is being able to just get him into a spot that he might have already done, but it just gave him the confidence to do it because the numbers backed it. Okay. Or because my set of eyes completely, you know, granted I'm biased. I want them to win, but very unbiased cuz I'm not the one running around getting beat. Right. Either the ball lands or gets up, but he's like, no, no, no I'm trying. I just said, Hey, this is where the ball's going. Build it, how you want, you're gonna get the dig and you're gonna, you're gonna transit and have a chance. Right. And you know, Casey, more times than not on transition on game point, he's putting balls away. Right. That's, that's a, that's, that's a tough person to stop on transition game point. So I think that's where I probably had my biggest impact was more on the scoring phase. And then the side out phase, it was more about just little staging things and little arm mechanic things just saying, Hey, you're getting a little tired, it's 110 degrees out. Maybe you're dropping your elbow. So let's factor that in. But let's not try to go for that sharp cross court where Troy's gonna just grab it and clamp you. Right.
Mark Burik (01:04:54):
Like just reminders of things that we're supposed to know. But just, you know, like why, why would a professional athlete have a personal trainer? You know, you've been doing it for 30 years. It's give you that reminder so that you optimize in that moment that, that you need to, so you are still giving technical ad advice. It's just, but for, I guess for guys at, at this level, it's, it's reminders to stay that little extra 1%. That's going to make that difference in that.
Mike Campbell (01:05:22):
Yeah. Because if we can, the more I was able to give those reminders and he checked, it was just like you said, those one, percents, those little things add up to big things. And that can, I mean, without knowing, I mean, you know, I can't predict anything, but sitting there, if there was an opportunity to do that, I said, I don't I'll have a regret if I don't say this or give this idea now, if he doesn't use it, maybe then that's his regret. But at least it was said we can debrief on it or we can go ahead next time. Don't tell me that. Like I did that with chase once I was like, dude, let's mix the server. He's like, Mike, I just got two. Why the hell would you tell me to mix up my serving cuz then he missed the next two serves.
And I was like, Ooh, okay. My bad. Won't do that again. You know what I mean? So it's not always clean. I can't sit here and tell you that everything we did was perfect, but it definitely was more about, you know, the tendencies and trying to get them, like I said, stimulate some ideas and then using their experience, um, to our advantage and letting them kind of run with it. Right. And just saying, Hey, this is what I do. Well, Mike told me, this is where the ball's going. That's the idea. We wanna stop that. I'm gonna go do it this way.
Mark Burik (01:06:24):
If you are, if you're at a tournament. So let's, let's pull this back to kind of a, a big bulk of our audience, which is a lot of, uh, B to AA tournament players. Mm-hmm if you have five or let's, let's call it, you have 10 minutes to scout a team and you have no film.
Mike Campbell (01:06:42):
Yeah.
Mark Burik (01:06:42):
What, what is the easiest homework or thing that you could give to somebody who hasn't played for 15 years, but what did they look for? And then what could they implement, uh, to, to play their next team? So they're, you know, they're reffing their pool play match, and they're gonna play that team next. What would this person look for specifically? Or count or try to pick up on?
Mike Campbell (01:07:08):
Yeah. Great question. So I think, you know, the first and, and that's, that's an environment where always in at the collegiate level too, is sometimes, you know, the top teams you're getting filmed, but sometimes you're in a tri dual and you're playing coastal Carolina. We've never played them. We've never seen them. They're a good team. We know they're gonna bring it, but we're, you know, we, we played the first match. They play the second match and then we play each other, the third match. So we got to see 'em right. So I, I, I try to tell the players, Hey, let's categorize as best we can each player's side out, what are their tendencies? Are they a shooter? Are they visual? Are they a spiker? Right. And that at least gives us a, a starting point of how we wanna defend them.
Mark Burik (01:07:43):
Is there a moment that, you know, that they're that like, is it in warmups? Is it the way they open the game? Or is it when they're in trouble?
Mike Campbell (01:07:49):
I like to, I like to say the first two, you know, side switch that first side, what are they doing? Right. Okay. Are they going into their Highline? Are they kind of getting up there, delaying looking? You know, they kind of, you know, all players like to establish rhythm, right? So, so I say, Hey, what are they doing to get in rhythm right now, if there's a huge side advantage that obviously breaks a little bit, but if it's a neutral game, you can kind of just say, Hey, this is a rhythm player based on their shooting, their spiking or their visual right now. It's a little different on the men's side. I think probably most people default to spiking. Right? I think there's a few, that'll be what I call combo where they'll, you know, like a Casey, right. He's gonna spike the balls. He should spike.
He's gonna shoot the balls. He's gonna shoot. He's very hard to strategize against. Right. But, um, you know, the vast majority you're looking at crunch time moments after a timeout, after a mistake, right. When they do get a little frustrated, what is their next play? Right. Are they, what does the timing look like? Do they move? Do they change tempo? Do they change location of swing? Do they kick out? Right. Like little nuances that become big patterns, right? Like if you're the type of player that anytime you make a mistake, you shoot high line. Right. That's something that's important to know. And as a defender, I need to choose my moment to go get that ball. Do I give you six high lines to start the game? Knowing that, you know, Hey, Mark's a top player. I'm, I'm lucky if I can get into it 19, 19 game. But at 1919, when I'm serving, I'm going for that high line and is mark gonna hit that ball? You know? So it's like just, just having a plan I think is important. And then if you're wrong, you're wrong. But going in and just, I think too often people are like, oh, we'll just ball read. We're good. We'll ball read. Right. You go block. I'll go defend. We'll figure out. So
Mark Burik (01:09:28):
They get pissed off after every single lost point. Correct. When there's no actual defensive strategy
Mike Campbell (01:09:32):
Too. Yeah. And then, and then for that whole next 10 seconds between you, when you serve to, to us, all we're talking about is, Hey dude, how did you not see that? Or body language? Right? Like if you're a Walker and they shoot Highline and you were ball reading and you're like, how the did you not see that? And I'm like, I don't know. I was ball reading cut shot. Right? Like you guys will be stuck on that thought. Meanwhile, they just short surveys you or they short serve you option right into their plan. Right. This is a game of chess. Right? So the more you can think cleanly and clearly, um, the better. So if you can and you can be wrong, but just going in with a plan of, Hey, this is how we're gonna attack, and this is how we're gonna defend.
But I say that with a caveat of don't play to your weaknesses, right. Play to your strengths. And what I mean by that. Yeah. What I mean by that is if they are a spiker, but you're a terrible blocking team. Don't stay in block. Find a way where if you're a good serving team, amp up your serving and say, Hey, if we miss five serves, it's worth it. Cuz we're gonna get them outta system. And now I can pull and I don't have to stay in block as much. So I eliminated their spiking range. Okay. And now I can pull into that range or I can Def slide my defender into that range. Right. So just instead of trying, oh crap, these guys are gonna spike every ball. So I've gotta now block and figure out how to leverage and go out of body and run a lot of fours or short them and do this, try to eliminate their strength with one of your strengths.
Okay. So it takes a little bit of time to do that. Cuz again, if you're not a good blocker, but you're crushing balls and bouncing balls, I'm in a natural tendency, wanna stay and get involved. That's what they want you to do. You're playing right into their hands. That's when they'll just shoot over or whatever. Right. So I think just balancing that is important. Right. Whereas if it, if it's you take it from the, the lens of like, okay, well I'm not a super great blocker, but now you go into a match and you try to get five blocks when you've never gotten more than two or three statistically
Mark Burik (01:11:21):
Or you're five, eight, and you're still,
Mike Campbell (01:11:23):
Yeah.
Mark Burik (01:11:24):
You know, they're trying to stop the six, six getting mad that you don't block.
Mike Campbell (01:11:28):
Cause when you do that, you'll notice. And again, that's the beauty of our sport is we have so many statistical tools that professional players don't have access to. Like we film every practice we film and, and stat, every match, the players have a database where they can go on and click matches for the last eight years and get all the stats from it. Right. So they, depending on how much they wanna research, they can see and we set goals for them. Hey, like if you're siding out at 67%, then you're serving percentage, theoretically needs to be 33% or higher to win a game. Right. They can, they can pull that data. And they right then and there they're like, oh, you're right. I side it out at 50%. But I scored at 55. So, you know, it's a sliding scale so that, you know, that usually applies for our lower pairs, like our fives, we're playing a lot more pull and a lot longer rally. Right. You know, the side out drops a little bit, the lower levels. Um, but at the ones twos three, I mean you're siding out 70%. You're usually pretty safe. Right. Whereas if it's, you know, 60%, you're not as safe as you might think you would be at a more professional level. So the, you know, I don't know where I was going with that, but, but, but having access to that, I think helps the players make certain decisions about how to match up against another team. Right.
Mark Burik (01:12:46):
When you're, when you're, you've come up with a strategy and you said like, you have to have a strategy. And I very much agree. I think that people play one point at a time. And when I, when I see them play or get upset, I'm like, you're playing checkers. You know, you're playing like little kid checkers where you just move a piece and then you're still upset that you haven't, you know, jumped a piece yet. Instead of this long game of figuring out what I'm trying to do, what balls I'm trying to get or what balls, I think that they're going to hit. And when I'm going to dig them, you know, versus like sitting there and playing that read game. But do you have any advice for players when they choose a strategy or a I'm only going to dig hard cross and Highline. Yeah. How long before, should they go continuing to not pick up a ball? Yeah. Before they should change their strategy.
Mike Campbell (01:13:37):
Yeah. I think it varies. So like with Troy and chase, we go like two or three balls and I say two or three, because the caveat is serving. If we're serving the ball well then maybe there's like, okay, Hey, let's let three balls go. Cuz that might have been the anomaly. Right. Okay. Whereas if we're not serving the ball, well then it's two, it's two balls. Like after two, if we're we're running the play and they've figured it out, we might need to change the play or change the look or serve the other guy or whatever. You know what I mean? Like it's usually we give it two opportunities. Right? Because again, this should all be happening after you've established the pattern that you expected is true. Right. So, so you know this isn't 0.1.
Mark Burik (01:14:12):
Oh, so you don't, you don't enter point blind against another team and try something twice and then change it.
Mike Campbell (01:14:18):
You know, it depends. Right? So like when we played USC this year, I told my team, I want you guys executing on your patterns right away, because I want us having a lead. Like we need to play with a lead against that type of team. Whereas maybe it's a conference team that we've beat. Historically. I go, Hey, just get into rhythm. Right. If you want, if that helps you and you want to go do line double up the first five serves, cuz that's gonna help you side out better then go ahead. But typically for us, if we can side out those first couple sides, well we are in a lot of games, um, against any team ranked in our area or below us. Mm-hmm now those top teams, that's where we'll tinker with strategy depending on matchup and or how we wanna start a game.
Right. So I think, you know, to the players, I'm speaking to that are listening. It's it's really about your game and what, you know, kind of how you want to play that team for that moment. Right? Like if you wanna, again, if you have the confidence in your abilities to side out and then everybody scores points, right? Like nobody plays a perfect match if you know that you can stay in it then yeah. Sit on some of those patterns a little bit. Don't show your hand, right? Knowing that, Hey, they think they might be ahead of you, but no, no, no. You know, what's coming late and you know how you're gonna neutralize that. Or if you're the type of player that has to get an early start, then use 'em early, but you better have the strengths and confidence to problem solve late. Cuz you know, they're not gonna just keep doing whatever you're stopping.
Right. I mean, nobody's just, that's the definition of insanity, right? Hey, I'm just gonna keep doing the same thing with negative result. Right? No player at the competitive level would not make an adjustment of some sort. So I think the better you are at problem solving the probably the earlier you can show your hand cuz you know that they are gonna problem solve right back. But you're staying ahead of 'em cuz you were expecting it, whereas maybe a less experienced player or just a really good side out player is like, I'm good. I know it's gonna come late and I'll get it late. Like, so we're, you know, just a personal anecdote. That's what I'm balancing with Troy and chase is like, when do we, you know, chase is like, I want it done right away. Like we knew it was coming. Why did we not get it?
And Troy's like, well I'm seeing 10 of them. And I know I can get two of them. And that could be the difference in a game is me picking and choosing. So we saw in Austin that worked for Troy, right? We saw it worked. He had a great tournament and he was digging some crazy balls, transitioning some balls, they made it to the finals. It didn't go their way. They faced a really, really good team that played out of their mind, you know? Or maybe that was just what that team played, all tournament. They know really good. And then the next term, they tried that and didn't work, you know? So it's just constant calibration at that level. But if, you know, like you said B to double a triple a range, I think you're watching a team you're developing like, okay, this is kind of their tendencies. This is kind of their style of play. This is their go for it server. This is their, you know, uh, this is this blocker six, seven, like, like we gotta move him. Right? Like those are things that are pretty generic, I think is once you identify it, it will work. But it's your job to not abuse it. And it's your job not to wait too long to use it. Is that kinda make sense. So that's why
Mark Burik (01:17:15):
Again, well, to me it's like that movie. Um, it's I think it was Steve preta where Steve preta, like he was a distance runner and he was like, I can run faster than every single person on this track at all time. So he wanted to go all out the entire time. It sounds like that was chase. Yeah. And then his coach was teaching him about pacing about like saying like, no, like stay even and then burn them late and you'll be a better runner and they just completely butt heads on it. And in the end they found, I actually, I don't think I watched the end, but either way he wanna gold medal. Right.
Mike Campbell (01:17:46):
Correct. Well, and that's the tough part is like balancing that, right? Like again, your players are the ones in it and experiencing it. So you have to kind of give some, you know, you gotta give way to them a little bit, you know, their, their lens is although sometimes it can get emotional. Typically they have a pretty good read for it at the, at the professional level. So you know, it, it's tough to balance that. Cuz like you said to me, 2119, I'm gonna remember that's a win right. Or 15, 13 and 30. But these players are like, no, no, no it's personal, man. I, I should be beat Mike Campbell, 10 out of 10 in two sets. We are not playing the long haul. We are gonna punch this guy in the face and we are not gonna let him punch back. We're gonna put our foot on his neck, you know, sorry, little graphic here, but we are gonna come in with that type of mindset because we, this is, this is a statement.
So the next two times we play them, they don't even have a shot. So I think it, it, it does need to there's, you know, there's, there's it oscillates, you know? And I, I, I hate saying that, cuz there's no definitive answer, but I think you just have to kind of weigh, you know, your self, your abilities, who you're playing, how you wanna approach that game. And is it a team you should be sending that message to? Or is it a team that maybe they're trying to do that to you and you need to play a little bit more of that longer, you know, longer drawn out strategy. It, it, I think it varies a little bit.
Mark Burik (01:19:04):
Can you give one example? So I think, I think most players don't try to pay attention to what other players are doing or their tendencies or like what their shot is after they make an error or what their next swing is after they have a kill. Like, do they just repeat, repeat, repeat, or do they randomly change it up after they've gotten three kills, hard cross in a row and they just decide that they have to hit Highline to change it up. So do you have not? Do you have, can you give me a specific way to stop a specific shot? So let's choose either cut shot, cross or Highline. How would you design a defense to stop that?
Mike Campbell (01:19:47):
Sure. So let's use the example of, and this is very common for our program. Like we will go at spikers, like we love making spikers, turning them into shooters. Right. So I'm just using those categories of offensive types. Right? So for a spiker traditionally, like you'll see a lot of combination athletes outside hitters that are playing left side. They like kicking out. Right. So we will serve deep right shoulder seem at a left side player. Right. So we'll try to pinch them in take away that, that kick out approach so we can read their body line a little bit better. Right. Cuz on the angle as a right-handed player, you've got a lot of options. Right? You can go bodyline cross, you can turn it, you can tool it. You can hit pivot. There's just so much range. So if we can eliminate that angle bodyline and turn it into more of like a stacked approach and make hitters hit thumb down where there's a little bit less control.
There's a net that gets in the way there's a block that could get you. That helps us. Cuz then we can kind of read the pattern of shot a little bit better. Right? So that was, you know, that was a big thing for us is finding a way to serve a spiker into the seam at the right time. Like, Hey, let's serve short, let's serve deep. Let's serve, spin at her. Let's let her kick out a couple times. Let's run some ones, let's run some fours, let's pull let's delay. Like let's get her kind of getting, you know, her, her shots in and her swings in and then seven, six we're up. We're serving, let's steal a point right now. So we call it bait, right? Like let's bait them into this pattern. So let's chip a, like a witty high, deep, middle serve back that spiker up.
Hopefully they kind of get a little lazy with their approach. They come in, we run a four, they pop pop the high line under defenders on it. Right. Okay. Cause that would, that would just be a theoretical. Does it work? Of course, not every time, but it gives us something that our blocker will just do a great job funneling. Our defender will hold and trust the play. And if she hits a cut shot, great. If she spikes it, we're on it. Now obviously if it's tight set our blockers, isn't just gonna dive. They're gonna block ball. Right. But typically on that play, you're getting a cut or a Highline. Not no spiker. I shouldn't say no, but majority of spikers, aren't gonna just jumbo out of that play. Right? They're not gonna just hit a loopy angle. Not at our level, not at
Mark Burik (01:22:02):
Like pro reserved one. Correct. It's where they know you're trying to jam them into a short corner and it's correct.
Mike Campbell (01:22:08):
Correct. So if we can get a, you know, a spiker who's not used to getting served a lot, then we serve them a lot and they kind of used their best shots. We can plan for this. We have the pattern, we have the trigger, which is that stacked approach that doesn't kick out. We run the play with confidence and we, and, and, and more times than not, you know, if you're using it the right time, if you set it up the right way, you're gonna get something you can stop. Whether it be a block, like a bad, low angle swing, or they maybe sometimes turn it and spike it out bounds, cuz they're just a little bit out of sorts or they'll just pump that Highline right. To our player, which is what we were kind of setting up.
Mark Burik (01:22:42):
Is there something that you, is that something that you put on? Repeat, repeat, repeat till it works or do you set it up with two serves in a different area? So that, that then like now's our snap time. Okay. Laid the trap. They got comfy. We let them get two cross kills. Let's say yeah. Now we serve them middle making them go for the same cross.
Mike Campbell (01:23:05):
That's a good question. I think it's, it's, it's hard to categorize. I think at the higher levels, it's more about building the pattern. And like you said, like let's do a couple of these serves to get 'em uncomfortable. And then when they do this, maybe they hit this once and then we do it again and we keep it the same knowing they're gonna use their other option. Right. Whereas if we keep changing it and she keeps changing it and she's always right and we're always wrong, we're never scoring points. It can get really frustrating. But the lower levels, what I do with them is it's all about failure recovery down there for me, because that's a much more emotional game sometimes, right? Where they're playing long rallies, there's momentum, swings. There's just so much going on there that a little bit of tactics goes a long way.
Right? Because I, I kid you not a majority of those games are going three and they're nail biters. They're they're like, they're going all the way, man. 2119 in the third, like they're going way, you know, over time dues games past the number 15, you know? So I think in those games we talk a lot about like, Hey, this player just made a mistake. She's kind of real in here a little bit. Let's set her up, let's bait her into this swing. And if they side out, so be it. But if we're in a side out game like that, we have to be taking some risks because that's the only way we're gonna finish it off. They're not gonna just hit in our lap. Like that game is so much about movement. Like shop movement, usually that, you know, we need to be ready for that. Right? Like you're not typically gonna win a game from your blocker at that level. You're gonna, you're gonna see a lot more dig, transition, kill to win a game. Right. You don't see big servers at that level winning you games again. Typically there's gonna always be that anomaly. Right. But at the ones, twos, threes, you're getting big jump servers. You're getting big physical blockers going outta body, doubling up a lot more like what we see on the AVP and world tour, right. Where, you know, you got,
Mark Burik (01:24:50):
I mean the ones and twos are world tour players.
Mike Campbell (01:24:52):
Correct. Right now Taylor stand or step into the line one, you know, and, and tailor crap stands at the net to block. We all know what's going on there. Right. The guy's just gonna bomb a serve. Right? Like you're, you're seeing that at the higher levels where I think that is more about strengths and then the lower fi you know, I don't wanna say lower levels. I think everybody's really good. But just in the, in the, in the traditional ranking scheme, one through five, the four, five sixes level, you're gonna see a little bit more of, like you said, it's just the one off like, Hey, try the play right here, because we've done this. Or we know that's her pattern. Like that is how she's gonna score a point. That's why I call it failure recovery. Right? Like when there's a big momentum swing that next play, we've gotta have a plan for, because if it goes our way, we could win this game.
Right. And that's where it's like, that's the one off is like, okay, Hey, what was the error? What is she gonna do to recover from that error? Is it gonna be her cut? Is it gonna be her swing? Is it gonna be her shot? Now let's play for that. Right. So then I let the team pick what that re you know, what that answer is, but at least we know we've kind of categorized and ex you know what we're expecting and you know, it, it helps, right. It, it definitely helps give your players a little bit of clarity. And that way, way, they're not overthinking the next point, the most important point, right. Is if they don't get that set up, that bait play, now it's tie game and they go back and they're pissed off. Whereas we just offloaded, Hey, that was our call. That was our plan. Blame us, don't blame each other or yourself, and then risk losing the next play against their set play. Cuz you know, they're trying to run the same stuff. Right.
Mark Burik (01:26:29):
I love as a coach trying to take out the, what if in players, you know, where they're questioning and they don't know what they should go for if, as a club coach or high school coach. Um, and then even as ANP coach, when you can't give them, the now is when we run this play it's you have scenarios and you say, this is what we do after X. Yeah. You know, and, and then at least they can have the, the confidence when they don't know what they want to do to be like, all right, well, our default is here. Yeah. And it's, that's a, it's a good, it's nice to have trust in a play and in a system like that when you can. I, I know even like, you know, from my experience from, from everybody else's experience that when you're at 19, 19 or, or 2020, you're just kind of wondering what play to run, what play to run. And there's not enough time before that whistle blows. And then you just kind of like, I guess we'll do this. Yep, exactly. You know, you just throw some fingers up behind you.
Mike Campbell (01:27:28):
Correct. And that's the biggest yeah. Plan. Yeah. Sorry to sorry to interrupt. That's the biggest thing is just have a plan and then you're taking out some of the speculation and then usually the plan will match up with training. Right? We don't want you to do something you haven't trained cuz then, or I'm sorry, maybe you've individually trained it, but your partner then turns around and is like, what? You just, you just dug that ball, like what's going on and then I'm not ready to set or I like, you know, double a ball cuz I was just like, so in admiration of you, you know, and I'm like, crap, I gotta be better. And now I go back there and I get aced, right? Like there's just, there's just so much, much value to that. And that's what I've come a long way. Like I did not do a very good job of that in my first year on the AVP or my first year coaching collegiate is I can package, I can hold a lot of information in my brain.
Just I enjoy film study. I enjoy strategy. Like I enjoy all that, but I realized my players aren't necessarily on the same page. And so I had to make it more digestible for an eight second. You know, let's use F I VB, right? Like you get eight to 10 seconds between plays on average. I had to get something to them that they could digest. Or at the collegiate level you're getting anywhere from 30 to 60 seconds in timeouts or side or side switch out of those that time players probably need half of it to just get over whatever they're feeling. You know what I mean? Cuz they're either upset or they're way too excited. Yeah. Right. Very rarely. Are you just, okay. I'm ready for all this information.
Mark Burik (01:28:55):
Yeah. Making sure your partner's emotionally. Okay. And uh,
Mike Campbell (01:28:57):
Yeah, your high side, you gotta worry about which side to switch to you don't wanna bump into, do I high five, the other player do I avoid already? There's all these things that are coming into it. Right. And so then I get about what, 10 to 15 seconds with a player or two. So I had to just give one nugget of information, right? Like just keep it to one piece of information that would help for the next seven points on the collegiate side and or for the next one point on the AVP. Cause
Mark Burik (01:29:22):
Now next seven points. So brilliant. Oh I wish more club coaches would hear that.
Mike Campbell (01:29:27):
Yeah. Right.
Mark Burik (01:29:28):
Instead instead of the one tip per point and correct. It's retroactive. It's what just happened instead of what's going to happen. So
Mike Campbell (01:29:35):
That's, that's, that's where I, and I, I fell short so many times and I was like, okay, a lot of reflection, a lot of player, exit interviews leading me to this conclusion. We have to just move on. And as a coach, there's nothing more frustrating than, than you watching your players break the plan or go rogue is what we call it. Right. Where they're just going and doing something completely outside the box of training. Even if it's good. I know that they're not mentally engaged the way we need to be to beat some of these teams. Right. So on the side switch, you gotta hold your tongue. You just gotta go, Hey, moving forward, we're trying this right. And that was something I worked with Zana Muno for one like little mini season during that pandemic year. And she was like, Mike, you were confusing the crap outta me. Just tell me what to do. and I was like, you got it. And so that, that was nice to hear a player and she was young, but it was nice to hear a professional
Mark Burik (01:30:26):
Actor make mature thing to say, to come at coach and say, you need to be clearer for me.
Mike Campbell (01:30:30):
Correct. And, and to have the confidence and, and I, we had a previous relationship so she felt really confident, but it was very eye opening for me knowing that man, I do that to my college players too. And they're probably just too afraid to say something I'm giving them way too much, not necessarily retroactive. A lot of it was proactive or, you know, for, for future plays, but it was just information that they're like, what did, what did he just say? I'm just gonna do the same thing. And I'm like, no, you know, so I think it was, it was a, a really good thing to hear that early on. And then it just makes it just streamlines your, the, the impact as a coach that you can have where, you know, again, we want to control so much, but we can't collegiately. It's built in you. Can't seven points, plan for seven, give them something they can use that will score them one or two points. You're not gonna win all seven. It's just not gonna happen. Like no team will give you a seven zero side without ultimate failure. And if that's happening, that team probably doesn't need a coach. You know what I mean? Like they're gonna be okay.
Mark Burik (01:31:32):
I think that rule would make so many indoor coaches better as coaches.
Mike Campbell (01:31:38):
Yeah. That they can't give feedback every point.
Mark Burik (01:31:40):
Yeah. You know, like how do I bunch the next seven points of advice right now?
Mike Campbell (01:31:46):
That's a cool thought. I mean, that I think would scare the heck out of a lot of coach . Yeah. Would, that would be a heart attack for a lot of people. And there's been a lot cuz you know, of internationally, the coach can't even be on the sand. Right. Like I, I think they're trying to, you know, the referees there's a certain element of respect that they want to keep the referees and the players and that's the, that's the group. Right. And I get that, you know, that's how they do Itally it makes sense. But I think for the way that AVP has changed, it it's been a nice, I still don't, you know, I'm not giving every point, but I'm calling some of those plays, you know, at the right moments or yeah. Right. Because I think that's important. Um, you know, like you said, at the grander scheme of things, pennies on the dollar, right.
I'm not making a drastic amount. So I, why do I need to feel the need to exert so much control, right. Collegially it's a little tougher cuz it is your livelihood. You know, this is a big part of what you do. So, so it's nice to have that built in framework where you cannot do too much and overwhelm, but you can do enough to where you can impact a game and you can be held responsible as a coach for not, you know, getting your team where they need to be. Right. It, it, it is, you can't make an excuse. Oh, well I couldn't say anything now you're getting enough now. So I think that the changes we've seen are, are helpful. And I always, I mean, I, I know every ref probably gives me the warning. I think every coach that is competitive gets a warning in a match, you know, Hey, not cheering anymore. Let's let's bring, let's scale it back. So, but I think, uh, you do it respectfully. You can, you know, like I said, it can be a little gray, right? There's still some gamesmanship there though.
Mark Burik (01:33:21):
Yeah. Mike, I can't thank you enough for this talk. This, we touched in areas that I didn't expect to. And we went deeper in some of the areas that, that I was really happy to, to, to pick your brain about. And there's a bunch of questions left, but I have to work on my online players. uh, in about 15 minutes. So I, I wish we had more time cause I wanna dive into AVP coaching and like what the, the talks are about. So maybe we can, can get you on again and tackle some, some other topics.
Mike Campbell (01:33:50):
But yeah, well we'll have to change the rating of the podcast to rate it are, cuz those talks can get a little colorful. Let's just preface it
Mark Burik (01:33:56):
With that members only.
Mike Campbell (01:33:58):
Exactly. No it's it's way I have this little time ticker in the top left of my screen here. I, it, it, this, this flew by. So I, I think the conversation was awesome and I hope everybody enjoys the subject and what we got into. And I, you know, I'd love to, to chat more and again, just very appreciative that you guys thought of me and invited me. And I feel like I've a very small, tiny little star in the solar system of beach volleyball, but I'm, I'm happy to always share cuz it was just growing up. I, I didn't even get to tell you my story growing up. It was such a big part of, of my childhood. So I wanna share that and inspire others. And I think the, the game, the legends before us have, have set that precedent, we, we owe it to them to continue and to also enhance and to make it better for future generations. And so I would love to share more anytime
Mark Burik (01:34:43):
That'd be, that'd be great. And we, we will Def bribe you into doing that. are there any, uh, projects that, that you're working on going forward or any anywhere or way that you want people to reach out to you or look for anything that you're doing and again,
Mike Campbell (01:34:57):
Get in touch? Um, no, just, you know, I, I love, we love the support of our program here at long beach. I think our team we've, we've really got a special group. You know, it's something I'm very, very proud of is the culture. And every single player has we've instilled and enhanced the already profound core values they've got. And so I would love the youth and, or even the competitive group to just have a moment if you ever do, just to check us out. I think it's, it's really special. I think some of the, like I said, some of the passion and, and the specialness of this sport shines through our players. And so it's just a breath of fresh air, even in a competitive environment, you can still smile. You can still play with joy. You can still play with fire, but reset to a place of joy. There's just a lot of cool things happening around the program. So I would love for anyone on the spectrum to come check us out in the beach volleyball world projects. I'm too busy for any projects. I wish I had some time with the family club coaching, AVP coaching, the college coaching. There's a lot. So, but I'm putting my all into it. So I'm really proud of those, those things. So yeah. Please come on out, check us out.
Mark Burik (01:35:58):
Cool. And, and give you a high five at, uh, the AVP tournaments when they're of course seeing you on center court.
Mike Campbell (01:36:04):
Yeah, yeah, of course, man. Thanks mark. Appreciate it, man.
Mark Burik (01:36:07):
Nice Mike. Thank you. Appreciate the talk. Have a great day. I know you're busy, man, but uh, really appreciate your time.
Mike Campbell (01:36:11):
You bet. Take care.
Mark Burik (01:36:13):
All right. Have a good one. Pow. Cool. Was that, that was great for an episode. So Mike, I mean, it's so intriguing to always to find a coach who has, is doing it at the NCAA level is doing it at the pro level, knows everything there is to know, and we didn't dive into it, but I'm sure that he's coached juniors to know what it's like to play and compete and work with different athletes, all along those different, different mindsets and to pull experience from that. It's fun to see that he takes his NCAA coaching and then with passion, he goes and he coaches AVP. Uh, of course we don't know, like behind the scenes, what deals, uh, AVP player strikes up with with coaches. And it's, I'll tell you from my experience, it's always different. It could be an hourly rate. It could be a daily rate. It could be we couple year hotels, you take 10% of winnings. We really, you just kind of make it up and hopefully people
Mike Campbell (01:37:12):
There's, there's still infrastructure there
Mark Burik (01:37:14):
but it's awesome to see that he, that he's going out with passion and, and continuing to coach. So if you guys here's an idea, look up long beach state university, they're volleyball, their beach volleyball website. It is on the show notes, check out their schedule, go to a match, take some friends. See what it's like to see an actual dual where you see five teams and sometimes two or three different schools competing at the same time. It would be awesome. There schedule will be there. Uh, we're linking it. We also got Mike's Instagram down here. So you can follow along with all his endeavors and, and what pro players and NCAA players he's coaching. And that is it. I'm, I'm happy with this episode, if you guys ever want to reach out or you know that we have, if you don't know, we have practice plans ready for you.
We are running coaching clinics and we're starting a better at beach coaching certification. So if you are a coach and you either want to get better or you want to join the better at beach team and start changing some lives and being able to do it remotely from anywhere in the world, we would love to have you on the team. Just shoot me a message. Be stoked to have you there and reach out if you guys ever have any questions or you need help. Uh, that's why we built the company and, and why we get to run such cool interviews like we just did. So that's all for me guys. Hope you enjoyed the episode. Uh, go ahead and visit long beach state university. Go check out Mike on Instagram. And if you need any coaching advice or player advice or anything you note ahead to [email protected], we'll be there for you. All right. See you on the stand.
